The Implications of Natalie Sudman’s Unusual Near-Death Experience in Iraq

Although every near-death experience is unique and profound, Natalie Sudman’s NDE after hitting a road-side bomb in Iraq was radically different from most. Natalie didn’t go through a tunnel, talk to God or see the beautiful vistas of heaven.  And yet her experience was extraordinarily valuable for those of us who seek to understand the nature of our greater reality and the afterlife. In this post, I will outline what happened to Natalie as she describes in her book “The Application of Impossible Things: My Near-Death Experience in Iraq” and attempt to understand the implications of all the wisdom she returned with.

I was in the truck, head on hand, half asleep, and then I was not.  I’ll call this instantaneous movement blinking from one place to another, for lack of a better word.  In this new environment, I stood on an oval dais looking rather intrepid in my bloody and torn fatigues, slouching a bit, dirty and darkly tan, addressing thousands of white-robed beings or personalities.  They were arrayed up and all around me as if I stood in the center of a huge stadium, the dais on which I stood being perhaps twenty feet in diameter.  The personalities were non-physical in essence, taking on form if they intended to do that for particular purpose.  I perceived the way they looked according to what I preferred for my purposes.  At the time, since I had been abruptly transferred from the physical plane, it was simpler to perceive them in a human form, wearing glowing white robes.

-Application of Impossible Things: A Near-Death Experience in Iraq, Natalie Sudman, 2012

The Chronology of Natalie Sudman’s NDE

Natalie Sudman

Natalie Sudman was a civilian construction contractor working for the US Army in Iraq in 2007 when her convoy hit a roadside bomb.  Natalie sustained lasting physical damage from the incident – the vision in her right eye has been permanently damaged, her skull was fractured and required titanium patches, and she has limited mobility in one wrist and shoulder.

As in the above excerpt from Natalie’s book Application of Impossible Things, Natalie had quite an unusual near-death experience in the moment when her truck hit the bomb.  She did not experience the typical out-of-body experience where she might have been floating above the scene before rushing through a tunnel toward the light.  Instead, Natalie simply blinked from one environment to another instantly, finding herself on a sort of stage addressing thousands of other spirits who seem to be studying her experience vicariously.

Most of these thousands were familiar to me, and all were my equal regardless of their admiration for my latest silly feat on earth…I knew the Gathering to be a meeting of many groups representing a wide variety of interests and responsibilities pertaining not only directly to earth and physical universe energies but to dimensions and issues beyond (Sudman 2012)

Natalie then describes a sort of download of information.  She calls it a “transfer of information in the form of an inexplicably complex matrix”.  The information included “events, thoughts, incidents, individuals, and groups in all their relationship complexities: stories, concepts, connections, nuances, layers, judgements, and projections.  It included kinetic equations and dimensions and symbols and flows.” or as she says later, “might be very broadly understood as cultural and political information.”

Natalie becomes aware that she had agreed to deliver this report to The Gathering before accepting her current body and lifetime on earth which also implies that she agreed to participating in the road-side bomb incident.

Natalie feels the admiration from The Gathering as they presumably digest the information though Natalie doesn’t accept her experience as particularly worthy of it. Members of The Gathering begin to discuss her experience amongst themselves using only thought in a way that is more highly structured and nuanced then our crude verbal language could ever accomplish; as Natalie states, “No overlaps occurred, no interruptions took place, no misunderstandings formed, and disagreements were respectfully and thoughtfully engaged and resolved.”

At this point, Natalie agrees that she will return to her physical body provided that she receive some assistance.  Exhausted by her experience and life up to that point, she retreats to what she calls “another vibrational dimension” to recoup her energy and rest. It lasts the ‘equivalent of centuries’ but she returns only moments later to The Gathering.  Natalie then discusses her plans for returning to her life on earth, detailing what she might accomplish and how The Gathering can and would assist her.

In the final state of her experience, she moves into yet another vibrational state or location where members of the Gathering would assist with the healing of her physical body. She could view her body from this place, and saw herself in the truck, “head propped up by my right hand, elbow resting on the door handle exactly as I’d left it. I could also see my body as an energy matrix.  Reading from both of those levels simultaneously, I could tell that my right hand was nearly severed at the wrist, my right foot and ankle were badly mangled, and I had a deep wound in my right torso.  There was a large hole in my head: I was missing one eye, the frontal sinus and a portion of my brain. (Sudman 2012)”

Natalie begins working to heal her body through the energy matrix, aided by energy beings.  Not all of the injuries were meant to be healed because some were meant for future tasks or for learning experiences.  In case you think that this was serious work, Natalie tells us that while they worked, they “joked with each other about what should and shouldn’t be done and casually engaged in a great deal of goofing off.”

When her body was healed to her specifications, she moved to another location that she describes as a “convenient jumping off point”.  She met briefly again with some members of the Gathering to discuss her agreements and personal issues before taking a deep breath and jumping back into her body.

When Natalie opens her eyes back in her physical body, the truck is still rolling down the road, indicating that in her estimation the entire ‘blink experience’ took less than five earth seconds.

Differences in Perception in ‘The Blink Environment’:

According to Natalie, she can revisit the experience as if it were a living memory, still active and continuing.  Certain elements can be changed; for example the attendees in white robes can be re-experienced as points of light or in other forms.  She can also change the environment of the stadium.  As soon as Natalie attempts to change other features of her memory like the tone of the gathering or her own appearance, the memory takes on a static 2-dimensional feeling or her mind ‘completely blanks out’. It seems as if certain elements are fixed, and other elements are available for influence by personal perception.  It reminds me of how William Bulhman (Author of Adventures Out of Body and Adventures in the Afterlife) and Jurgan Ziewe (Author of Multidimensional Man and Vistas of Infinity) describe their experiences visiting the afterlife in OBEs; there are some areas which are consensus realities – unchangeable by individual consciousness, and thought-manifested realities – environments that change based on an individual’s perception.  Even Galen Stoller from Life after Life: A Posthumous Memoir experiences area in the afterlife that are pliable to his thought (his recreation of Superman’s fortress of solitude), and others (such as classrooms) that are not.

Natalie also describes differences in conceptualization and the expansion of consciousness in the Blink Environment, brilliantly comparing it to the ways we might read a book.  In our earthly lives, we tend to read everything front to back, left to right.  In the Blink Environment, her experience could be understood in a myriad of different but interconnected ways.  In the book metaphor, it would be like reading backwards, or grouped by scenes, or reading the words from the outside in, or upside down, by setting, emotion or every page simultaneously.  Our ability to analyze and understand events is greatly expanded once out of the physical body.

Natalie was able to hold awareness from multiple focal points simultaneously; such as being aware of being in the truck, in the Blink Environment, outside of both, and in other dimensions all at the same time.  I have experienced this myself during an OBE where I was simultaneously aware of being in my body in the bed, and also walking around my house.  It seemed completely natural at the time, but I cannot recreate the feeling while awake.

Like Jane Robert’s Seth channelings, Natalie stresses the validity of thought as a creative force.  She makes the distinction between thoughts that “have form when that is intended and otherwise exists as energy with potential effects, though lacking in perceptible form.  No form of any kind is possible without thought energy to instigate it.”  I am reminded again of William Buhlman who claims that he has visited an energy dimension where our thoughts are creating the potential for physical things through intention.

Could Dean Radin’s research showing consciousness affecting quantum states have something to do with ‘creating our own reality through thought?’

Of course, although the adage ‘you create your own reality’ has been bandied about by many new-age outfits by now with an almost casual air, I don’t think many people really understand that we already utilize energy for creation completely unconsciously.  Moreover, most people who follow shallow new-age pseudo-gurus like Esther Hicks believe that we can all be fabulously wealthy and have perfect health if we just believe hard enough.  Such a simplistic, and I would argue – dangerous – misunderstanding of thought manifestation continues to mislead and disappoint people who have good intentions and simply want to better their lives.  But I digress; that is a discussion for another post.

Another aspect of Natalie’s experience emphasizes specialization and teamwork.  Different individual personalities seemed to be adept at different areas of expertise, such as those who helped heal her physical body, or her spiritual body.  Others assisted with personal issues, or disseminating information.  Many personalities present at The Gathering were there to discuss overall political or social issues facing our society on earth at this place in time.  This jives nicely with Dr. Newton’s life-between-life regression discoveries that suggest that as we advance spiritually, we take on a type of specialty – like an afterlife career – that suits our personality and particular skills.

See post “Dr. Newton’s Concept of Soul Specialties: What’s your afterlife career?” for a description of the various specialties that his patients have described.

The “Life Review” and the Concept of Good and Evil:

Like nearly all near-death experiences, Natalie didn’t experience any sort of external judgement on how she had lived her life up to that point.  Although thousands of beings were downloading information related to her life choices and experiences, Natalie describes a distinct apathy toward any perceived judgement, knowing that in an arena of such expanded awareness, good and bad deeds are simply seen as experiences.

“The Problem of Evil” is something that both philosophy and religion have long struggled with and yet Natalie makes the distinction that rules for behavior to ensure collective harmony is only really valid from our physical perspective and therefore applicable only while we reside in it.  As she states, “From my experiences in expanded awareness, it appears to me that no being is considered evil or bad.  Actions of a being may be understood to be disruptive, inharmonious, or detrimental to the creative flow within any one reality, but the creativity of an action could be understood as valid – perhaps even necessary or useful – regardless of the overall disruption.  Actions of a being may be understood as likely to look disruptive or evil from within a physical perspective while being considered beautiful, necessary or valuable creative action from the perspective of expanded awareness and thus good in every way.”

Natalie then uses herself as an example; suggesting that the person who built the bomb that blew her up in Iraq may have done so at her own request.  The bomber may have agreed because he wanted to “experience what its like to be chased, arrested, detained, or killed for the violence he visited on others.”  She continues by saying that even though  soul agreements may exist for actions we may perceive to be ‘evil’, doesn’t mean we should condone them on the physical level of existence.  Our system of judging ‘good’ and ‘evil’ is appropriate for our level of reality.  In a higher level of reality, however, these experiences may be perceived as a catalyst for growth, greater experience or change.

In one of the seven times Natale has been interviewed by Bob Olsen (videos below), she describes finding out that she may have lost an eye and feeling excitement because this might present her with an experience of losing her vision.  In the physical reality, Natalie certainly didn’t want to lose her vision but while her consciousness was expanded, her ‘Whole Self’ was interested in how she might learn and grow from such an experience.

Natalie also brings up a really important point about the idea of karma that religions and spiritual beliefs tend to get wrong.  We like to assume that good things will happen to us in life if we’ve behaved properly, treated others with respect and generally were good people.  Likewise, bad or evil people will eventually ‘get what’s coming to them’.  I will admit that I have fallen into this trap myself, often wishing that the negative people I’ve encountered will get a taste of their own medicine.  The truth is that we all have individual lessons that we have chosen to learn through various experiences that we agree to participate in.  Additionally, what we consider a negative experience here on earth might have a positive outcome later on, which casts the entire experience in a new light. Although its tempting to look at someone with a lot of difficulties in life and assume that they’ve done something to deserve it, consider that they might just be a strong enough spirit to handle the challenges, and therefore chose to learn lessons through adversity that we are not yet ready for.

The Void:

The Void is a place that is occasionally described in near-death experiences variously as a place of tremendous agony, loneliness, or psychic pain or conversely as a space of loving healing, rest and peace.  It seems to depend on the experiencer, since the Void amplifies your character and intentions.

Read my post on Sometimes You Don’t See the Light – The Void: A Place of Nothingness in the Afterlife for examples from NDEs and spirit literature

For Natalie, the Void is a place of spiritual healing.

The stillness and vast space is profoundly peaceful in its silence.  Although the idea of a vast emptiness might seem cold and intimidating to some, this vastness is intimate and cozy.  Imagine burrowing under thick down quilts in the most comfortable bed imaginable while a snowstorm rages outdoors.  Close your eyes then, and while you are feeling so physically cozy, enter in the limitless dark, peaceful, and creative space of the mind.  Imagine the body as weightless and without boundaries within that, and the deep contentment that I felt in this Rest Environment might be approximated (Sudman 2012).

It is in the Void, or as Natalie calls it, The Rest Environment that she takes a leisurely psychic stroll through her life review, pondering the possibilities and probabilities, going into and out of moments from a variety of perspectives.  She describes her senses as being connected, and in a way “one sense” whereby a sound can be tasted, and images heard.  This type of synesthesia is commonly described in NDEs and spirit writings.  I’m reminded of a scene depicted in Anthony Borgia’s book by automatic writing “Life in the World Unseen” where he channeled the Anglican Priest Robert Hugh Benson.  Benson describes watching an orchestra play in the spirit world and the beautiful, colorful shapes that bloom above the arena forming abstract images that visualize the music as they play.

The Function of Spirit Guides:

Natalie is aware of nine personalities – spirit guides, in our parlance – that have volunteered to assist her with her physical life and spiritual agreements.  The role that these personalities play are numerous; they assist in preventing “unexpected clashes, physical threats, or side-tracking off the broad course of interest intended by the Whole Self.”  What I find most interesting is what these spirit guides can actually do for us.  They can steer us toward or away from particular decisions, offer advice through interactions with our environment and people, protect us from harm, and even affect the physical environments – moving things, affecting time, create situations and influence thought patterns.  Earth physics are no barrier to our guides.  Although Natalie then uses an example in the book where she was saved from a dog attack, I would insert my own incredible experience here to illustrate how I believe our guides can do miraculous things if it is in our best interest.

I was seventeen years old and questioning my spirituality.  I had just learned about spirit guides and was pondering their existence while driving too fast down a two lane road.  Out loud I challenged my spirit guides to prove their existence to me if they were real.  I approached an intersection at the top of a small incline.  The light was green and I accelerated toward it to beat the yellow.  Going 60 in a 40, I sailed over the top of the hill completely unaware of the parked 18-wheel trailer directly in front of me, taking up my entire lane.  With a solid line of cars to my left, and no way to avoid crashing directly into the back of the tractor-trailer, I had no options.  The limited visibility had left only about 50 feet between seeing the tractor trailer and hitting it.  There was no time to even swerve out of the way, even if I could have.

Knowing I was about to experience a head-on collision that would likely take my life, I simply closed my eyes and took my hands off the steering wheel.  There was a breath.. a heart beat, and then..nothing.

I opened my eyes.  My car was decelerating down the hill, past the trailer.  It seemed as if I had passed right through it.  I pulled over, shaking and crying.  I couldn’t understand how I had made it past the trailer. I should have been dead; it was like I was transported instantly past the trailer to safety.  I thanked my guides and I have never doubted them again.

I have heard from more skeptical people that I must have blacked out and swerved, but even if I had I would have had to hit another car. Secondly, I have been in accidents since then and I have never blacked out; it’s not something that has ever happened to me in any circumstance.  I just know that I wasn’t meant to die that day.  Because of my foolishness, my guides altered time and space to make sure I didn’t.  Conversely, if dying at 17 was a part of a spiritual agreement, then certainly I would have.  It was a matter of preserving my life plan despite my stupid disregard for my own life.

In Conclusion:

Nadalie Sudman’s Book Application of Impossible Things: My Near-Death Experience in Iraq is filled with incredible wisdom and far more experiences and insights that I have outlined here.  The book is worth reading in its entirity (see the works cited below for more information).

Through her NDE, Natalie confirms many spiritual and afterlife precepts, such as:

  • Spiritual agreements and life plans
  • Spirit guides
  • The experience of physical lives for learning, growing and experience
  • The specialization of individual personalities in the spirit world
  • The continuation of learning in the spirit world, and learning through the experiences of others
  • The multidimensional aspect of the afterlife
  • The pliability of time and space
  • The Void experience
  • Healing through energy work and the energy matrix of the body
  • The importance of challenge in our lives, even that which we consider ‘evil’
  • Thoughts create reality, intentions influence events
  • The lack of external judgement in the afterlife
  • The expansion of consciousness and increased perception in the spirit realms

I believe Natalie Sudman’s experience is one of the most instructive NDEs I’ve read.  Natalie deftly uses metaphors to help us understand what most people can’t find the words to describe.  Moreover, she interprets her experience in a way that ordinary people will find valuable for their everyday lives. 

Natalie Sudman was awarded the Defense of Freedom Medal in 2008.

Also recommended is Natale Sudman’s seven interviews with Bob Olsen:

Works Cited:

Sudman, Natale. 2012. Application of Impossible Things: My Near-Death Experience in Iraq
Ozark Mountain Publishing, Inc. ISBN-13: 978-1886940246

Have you ever had a miraculous intervention that saved your life or prevented injury, attack, or death?  Have you ever experienced a miraculous healing, or know someone who did?  What role, if any, have your spirit guides had in your life?

25 thoughts on “The Implications of Natalie Sudman’s Unusual Near-Death Experience in Iraq

    1. Hi Jason! They are good, but long. I’ve listened to a few and Natalie definitely goes into more detail than what is in her book. She’s also great at explaining difficult concepts. What a brave woman too!


    1. Thank you so much!! The book is excellent. Natalie Sudman is a good writer and it’s quite sophisticated in terms of her analysis. Definitely not a typical NDE book.


    1. I can’t be the only person to dream repeatedly of similar “gatherings”, over decades, although mine tend to be identified by me in these dreams as either events taking place in a big lecture hall or theater, or as a party winding through a rambling old house in the evening and spilling out onto the lawn etc., everybody talking and laughing, and all familiar (though often with faces I can’t identify exactly, and it doesn’t matter). Sometimes there’s serious planning going on — maps, diagrams, a particular object of study (in one case, a human fetus — I surmise that that one was maybe about evolution). I am not usually a “presenter”, although sometimes I’m more central than usual — not a problem, just happy to be with my (massive) “gang” again.

      “Differences in perception” — yes; this is what makes the concept of Karma work, IMO. We learn a ton of a given life’s “lessons” not during the life itself, but afterwards, looking back over it, realizing not just what we did but ever effect our actions has had on others and what connections might be usefully built on in our next life etc. I’m thinking that’s when we identify what we owe and to whom (and v.v.), so we can make plans to re-establish balance with the other individual(s) involved. I think that between lives we have access to what I’ve seen called the Akashic Library or the Akashic Plane, where everything that’s ever happened is recorded.

      Judgment — learning over time how perspective changes interpretation of events leads eventually, I suspect, to what might be the great goal of physical experience: acceptance. I think this, even though I recoil from the idea of accepting (the existence of) injustice, say, as an inescapable part of physical life; I don’t believe in a “fallen” world, but I do think we learn to come to terms with the limitations placed on physical life by universal truths, like the laws of physics. I hate the idea that this physical world isn’t perfectible because it’s already perfect, on its own terms — terms that *don’t* include justice and compassion, which are items that *we* (and other self-aware species) bring to the table.

      Definitely have to go get this book — people have been throwing light on these perceptions for a long time, but maybe (with the on-going exodus of curious minds from institutional religion) the time is becoming ripe for a more widespread awareness of this kind of thinking, well beyond the wish-fulfillment frou-frou added by New Age hucksters.


  1. Thanks Jenn for a great review – made particularly insightful by your accumulated knowledge of the other literature out there including Seth.
    I think I’ve encountered the Sudman case before but only peripherally, so will now take a closer look.
    I’m giving here just instant thoughts encountering this post on just awakening from sleep, so my meanderings may be somewhat muddled…..
    Quote from Natalie: ““From my experiences in expanded awareness, it appears to me that no being is considered evil or bad. Actions of a being may be understood to be disruptive, inharmonious, or detrimental to the creative flow within any one reality, but the creativity of an action could be understood as valid – perhaps even necessary or useful – regardless of the overall disruption. Actions of a being may be understood as likely to look disruptive or evil from within a physical perspective while being considered beautiful, necessary or valuable creative action from the perspective of expanded awareness and thus good in every way.”
    This reminds me of that George Carlin clip where he speaks of life being “all just a game”
    From a similar perspective there has been much discussion lately about whether life can be viewed as some kind of computer simulation…
    When I protest to kids playing some violent screen game about the terror and injustice of it all they say ‘Loosen up – it’s not real. It’s just a game. Nobody really died”
    It seems Natalie is suggesting something similar. It may all look like serious blood and guts to we characters in the ‘game’ but we seem to be following a scenario in a game disc we’ve chosen to play.


    1. Hi Dave, thank you for your comment. Your thoughts aren’t muddled at all, you always have something interesting to add. 🙂 Piggy-backing off your observation that ‘life is a game’, I remember reading something by Elias (channeled by Mary Ennis) that I always thought was interesting. He said that many of our technologies are created first in the spirit world, or else they are an approximation of what we can do in the spirit world already; consider the internet for instant global communication vs. group telepathy in the spirit world. Anyway, he specifically said video games are popular not only because they are fun, but because when we are in spirit, our earth lives feel like characters in a video game. The idea of taking on a avatar is likened to souls taking on a body, then playing a role they agreed to play including all the challenges and ‘levels’ of the game. I found that very interesting, and very much in line with what Natalie and you are saying.


    2. I think using a spectrum of perspectives is helpful: with a “god’s eye view” (with or without an actual “god/God” involved), it’s a game, a performance, a piece of enormous art that consciousness sets to spinning itself as a form of expression, entertainment, splendid design, etc. See also ideas of life as a dance (Krishna?).

      But *at the same time* every drop of blood, knife of pain, wringer of illness is also brilliantly and vibrantly real and super-significant to the person experiencing it, maybe because we come to the physical plane *in order to discover what pain, suffering, and helplessness feel like. Personally, I think this is how we, each individual making her own pathway through successive lives, arrive at the lesson of compassion — not the dollar in the box kind, the real deal.

      Off the physical, where I suspect we live the vast majority of our existence, how could we learn this without bodies and nerve-systems to carry the messages of pain? The good humor and (from our pov) detachment of these beings doing their work on disembodied Natalie are due, IMO, precisely to the facts that a) they have all the time, in whatever form and at whatever rate) needed to accomplish what’s been decided on; b) they are not distracted or influenced by suffering because they don’t feel it while disembodied, and c) they can see the entire tapestry already woven, as they plan next steps of/in the overall design. The passage of lifetimes on Earth (or, in future, other planets) is intense and crucial to our “higher education” leading to off-the-physical existence after we’re done with bodies — maybe because on no other plane of existence is physicality available to us.

      Seeing physical experience this way isn’t meant (I mean as I speak of it here) to change the meaning of physical experience as we go through it in bodies; it’s a way of trying to expand the ways of perceiving that experience without vitiating the reality and significance of any particular viewpoint.

      Sheesh; I think I just wrote the equivalent of “It’s all good”. What happens when you get into the Big part of this stuff — you end up spouting platitudes . . . but for a reason. There are things we’ve always known on some levels that we gradually learn to see in their multiplicity of meanings.


  2. Maybe a part of the reason that we experience such angst and confusion and roil against the otherwhere is that in choosing to become mortal, to become human, we also have to become animal, which inhibits out ability to easily expand our consciousness beyond the here and now. We become anchored to the actual reality of what is immediately around us. As there are no evil animals, perhaps there are no evil people, just what we perceive to be evil deeds. I am still trying to accept that concept, however; I have not yet evolved past feeling that some beings are simply evil, chaotic forces, devoid of light.
    In being chained to the earth, we can use our confinement as an excuse not to expand our understanding or to reach beyond the length of the links. The first step may be slipping the chain.
    If you have ever seen a dog escape off-lead, you may have noticed a pattern. First the dog runs wild and happy, but then becomes anxious at the abrupt discovery of a virtually limitless world. Some become lost. This is what I think some of us fear in meeting death: to chase that freedom means risking becoming spiritually lost, or simply losing our selves as we currently know them.


    1. Hey Rabbit, yes – loss of identity is something I’ve struggled with when reading about the expansion of consciousness and the incorporation of past lives. I guess the human part of me is a little ego-centric. As for evil, I guess some people are so dark that the distinction might be difficult to make but I believe that no one starts out that way – to be evil is a choice, a verb, an action.. I’ve read a few spirits who have gone down to the depths of the lowest afterlife levels and have seen people who are so unrepentantly evil that they look and act more like monsters or beasts than the humans they once were. Now, there is redemption even for these lost souls, but all redemption starts with the willingness of the soul itself. Like you said – no evil people, just evil deeds. Were these people or souls to choose good deeds, then I guess they would no longer be evil. Of course, what we consider good and evil is currently from a human perspective, which is much different than from a soul perspective. Let’s say a killer and his victim agree that they will switch roles in their next life – the killer becomes the victim. From our perspective, a person has committed one of the worst offensives you can commit, but from a soul perspective, the former killer now knows what its like to be a victim, and has learned what the sanctity of human life is worth. The former victim, who took on the role of the killer, has had to sacrifice a lot in order to agree to take on that role. In that scenario, the former killer would be grateful that the other soul agreed to do something so difficult as take another human life. It’s crazy to think about.


  3. Forgive the long reply, but please consider some of the points below over many days or years…is such evil necessary?
    Since we cannot transparently see the world after death, we have to judge the material received by fruits on earth, thus we can easily see that peoples choices to participate in moral choices that steam from a belief in individual rights (a spiritual right of sovereign souls) have grave consequence. History, – never tell the age of liberty, gave the bulk of individuals such a participatory choice. I think much of spirit world has not caught up to this – people in the spirit world are mostly followers! Most civilizations, including in other worlds – spiritual or physical, were controlled by a few. So billions of souls never learned nor practiced, thus transformed in their sovereign nature. Liberty as in Americas founding set a new precedence in time and space for the masses, it reverse the role of control from the state over the individual to the individual over the state. Sadly It does not look like its going to last much longer, history is re-absorbing it back into the deception of the state because people/beings in both physical and spiritual worlds do not want or know how to take responsibility as sovereign beings. As you may know, there was an earth like civilization on Mars that was destroyed. There was a flood judgement on earth (lots of archaeological evidence for flood story) and destroyed was Sodom and Gomorrah after that. Is it not possible when things get beyond redemption in how base our civilization gets that its best to wipe the slate clean and start over. These Beings were taken from the physical plain and moved to spirit world where they continued in their base state. It may seem like I have gotten off track here, but its a connected conscience reality! This is where the judeo-christian narrative (not orthodoxy) rings more true than the contradictory nature of messages from spirit world, NDE or ET downloads and experiences (its important that they be integrated together…also there are good guy ETs and bad guy ETs). I think its is an absurd narrative your being lead to believe that a parent should at any time in history, let alone under liberty, that a child needs to be beaten by their parent (i.e God or creation) or sexually abused to know what a gift it is to be loved and respected by the contrary experience of loving parents – apply this idea into the world around you or the article above! I think its pure spiritual BS…its evil wanting to remain evil as they have great control in spirit world experiences and we have no way to test it but by the affects on our attitudes and behavior…why do I say this…cause it breaks down our will to fight evils dominion over our sovereignty! The bible says to love good and hate evil (i am not a literalist, but it is foolish to disregard the book and spiritual insights). After reading her testimony or ones like it, do you fell like hating evil if its just part of the play and maybe next time you will get to rape and pillage to teach lessons! I am not a religious fundamentalist if your thinking i might be. I dont think the judeo-christian expression and experience (including Jesus) relates to God as parental by accident, – otherwise your negating the experience of billions of souls the have chosen to love God and their neighbor as themselves. I would love more than anyone to see the Jewish and Christian world evolve, but it does not neutralize their historical significance and influence; which by the way brought about liberal democracies that allow such discussion as this one – something that is outlawed in much of the rest of the world cause it threatens the powers that be (judge by the fruits). The mind I speak with will make a far better world than the one we have, whereas the sublime idea of no real good or evil will put our physic to sleep and we will not vote-participate in the breath of God which is for all souls to live in Liberty and peace. Life will still have more challenges than we can handle just learning to love our mates, our neighbors and fulfill practical purposes, – let alone the exploration of the universe and its many inhabitants!
    Lastly, is it not possible that the organization of the spirit world is product of the so called fall of man. That its structure was based on making the best of things as we experience them within the context of working existence, could it not further evolve as we spiritually evolve just like America was the birth of the first We the People sovereign nation in history. Did not spiritual understandings skyrocket here with Christianity first then the spiritualism movement of the later 1800’s tell the state through the university and materialism shut it down. I think so.
    Here’s a radical idea, maybe the spirit world needs a revolution, a declaration of Independence and restoration of original spiritual sovereignty. Is that not what underlies Christ message to follow him into a sphere in the spirit world NOT ruled by the evil forces (btw i think there’s a christian hell for some of those sob’s)! Is it not a consistent testimony from NDE’s and other spiritual experiences that if you find yourself in hell or the like that by called out to the parent God or Jesus, reciting psalm 23, saying the lord prayer or singing amazing grace bring help and liberation (btw it also works in psych wards). Judaism and Christianity have been in a bloody battle with evil forces through out history…regardless of their short comings, which is to be expected as its a human problem. Liberty, physical or spiritual will not survive without them as part of the dynamic in my opinion because they carry an underlying truth to their existence and that is what I’ve expressed above and that is why i cannot believe evil that seeks to vanquish liberty, control nations, as we see in the world today as in history, is an original balancing force like yin and yang. Yes i do think we will always have our spiritual battles on the physical plain as part of our maturation process as well as our adventures as dualistic being cause sex is great when two become one!


    1. This response may be a bit cryptic but alas.
      I believe the reason that things are the way they are is because of our ignorance of our self-nature. Most people would not do the shit they do if they knew they who they really were Sat chit ananda let say, eternal consciousness bliss. So, so called evil exist from this ignorance. ‘Evil’ is not creative it is a function of humans running out unconscious mechanical scripts or programming. The opposite of creative. I do not believe there is a Devil in this world. Maybe there are such ignorant beings that propagate mischief somewhere in the universes? but i doubt it. Consciousness is neutral not moral. Goodness is up to us on this planet. Giving evil doers attention, as the press does, fees some of them. There are no ‘evil forces’ to battle just ignorance that allows the assumption of a separate ego which wants to, and can only exist, in the darkness. Darkness disappears in the Light. Voila.


  4. in my thoughts of trying to reconcile evil i came up with this. is it possible that hitler (and other nefarious entities) was a high supreme being who came to the physical plane at the behest of millions that wanted to experience evil at the extreme. this being was willing to sacrifice itself and become the lowest of creatures then to have to climb again to the heights of spirit….all for the enlightenment of others. bob


  5. You must be aware of IANDS work and there interview on Talkzone. Some remarkable ones like. Particularly Judith White. I’ll include a list of links here of the ones that spoke to me best. These are meant as an introduction to NDE phenomena for newbies.

    Alma. “Suffers well” 9 minutes.

    Judith White, 3 x’s music. The most amazing perhaps.

    Anne Horn, 5minutes. Strangled by her husband.

    “One of the things that bothers me so tremendously about the metaphysical movement, in lieu of my experience and in lieu of what I was shown… if there is any message I can give, it’s not about meditating and leaving your body and taking your Light Being out of this Earth. Indeed, not. It is about bringing the Light into this Earth. Stay here. Be an anchor. Let the Light come in through you into this world. Don’t abandon this world. We need you. We need you here. We need you to be present. And we need you to be open, with an open heart… Everybody must be open. To bring this new age in, it is about opening your heart and letting it sing through you. It is coming! And it is a matter of all of us. Just open your heart and let It come in. Don’t leave. Don’t meditate and think this place is a bad place and we’re going to get out of here. This is a wonderful place. And it’s going to get even more wonderful. You’re here to anchor the Light so It can come into this dimension and be here.”

    Rebecca Martin. Satya Sai Baba 9 min.

    Atheist college prof. Hell and Christ. 15 minutes.

    NDE Documentry. 1:04 minutes many interviews

    Physicist NDE. 30 min.

    Natalie Sudman, unusually smart or observant. Not NDE an OBE. 21 min.

    I picked this as the shortest one. All are good.


    1. Thank you so very much for all of this great info! I will look forward to going through it. Yes, I am aware of Iands, but I’ve never seen these interviews before. Thanks again!


  6. Natalie’s description of her experience is so unusual from other OBE’s or NDE, (I’ve read and listened a few.) that i’ve speculated that she is something like a walk-in from an alien, benign, soul group from some other dimension. Fret not we can use all the help we can get here. And she’s a Light bearer.


  7. Another excellent and eloquent article, Jenn. I was deeply moved by Natalie’s experiences and the depth of her awareness, but also deeply troubled after seeing the photograph of her sitting on her bed with President Bush and smiling at him.

    I respect that you are a thorough researcher about things mystical, but you (and Natalie) may not be as aware of political realities, specifically with respect to the sordid history of U.S. imperialism in general and American aggression and terrorism in the Middle East in particular, with their tremendous toll in worldwide human suffering and environmental destruction. Bush’s father, George H.W. Bush (and his father before him) were likewise perpetrators of this insidious lust for wealth and power, and had no hesitation in using deceit and intimidation towards these ends. A search for “911” and “truth” reveals facts that the mainstream media will never have the courage to reveal. An excellent 6-hour documentary, The New Pearl Harbor”, by Italian filmmaker Massimo Mazzucco, exposes the lies of the government’s conspiracy theory about what happened on 9/11/01. Once one is aware of how madmen masquerading as patriots (and the corporations that they serve) have manipulated our fears to accomplish their ruthless ends, one cannot in good conscience participate in their projects or regard them with trust or admiration.

    I have been deeply moved by lessons shared by near death experiencers for much of my life. I found myself sitting next to Kenneth Ring on an airplane decades ago (I’m 66), and appreciated his assurance that all of us can benefit from these experiences and be of service to others by sharing their wisdom without the need to have NDE’s ourselves.

    The consistent message that these experiencers communicate is that our lives are about learning how to express love. Our planet is dangerously close to catastrophic annihilation of life, much greater than the species extinctions and environmental degradation that we have already caused through our ignorance and apathy. We don’t have much time left to turn it around – if, indeed, there is enough time left to do so. Our only hope is to proceed with our eyes and hearts wide open.

    Thanks again for sharing your experiences, your research, and your wisdom.


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